Here is the account of a correspondence which I became involved in toward the end of my summer of missions. I hesitate to post this for fear of offense toward the other party, but if any such issue arises I will humbly recant this posting. The woman, whose name is already so cryptic will further have her identity concealed by me through the pronouncement of her name as Ms. X and can choose to reveal herself if necessary. I post this, with also an accute fear of possible pride, in an attempt to receive thoughts. What do you think? How does this affect you? What do you think of the dialogue between us? where have each of us failed and succeeded in our arguments or also in our implementations of debate in a loving manner? This has popped up in my mind off and on since its occurrence and now I seek your thoughts. And it begins...From: Ms. X
Sent: Wed 8/9/2006 5:40 PM
To: Deharte, Matthew
Subject: Re: [After the Tempest...A Murmur] 8/06/2006 09:35:44 PM
I have a hard time with someone professing to be a follower of Christ who has profanities throughout their writing. Have you thought about how that comes across to others?
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Posted by Ms.X to After the Tempest...A Murmur <> at 8/06/2006 09:35:44 PM
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Ms. X
"Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge." Proverbs 14:7
On 8/8/06, Deharte, Matthew <> wrote:
Ms. X,
As an experienced follower of Christ, i appreciate your concern with my moral well being, and to be honest I have reflected on the way that such profanity would be projected out into a hurt and dying world. The conclusion that i have made and the standard i continually try to reach is one of honesty and sincerity. I hold nothing back of my broken self when I confess and interact with God, and i have decided that the public deserves the same, not a cheap mask (metphorically speaking) that most American church goers hide behind in the modern era. As for myself and being a light...well I know that I have reached more who do not have a relationship with Christ in a broken world by being real with them than I have ever done by trying to please "the saved", and I say to you, with as much grace as i can muster because I mean it with all sincerity, that I don't expect you to understand and that is okay. Thanks for the commentary! i love hearing peoples thoughts whatever they are. Much love & God Bless.
Matt DeHarte
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From: Ms. X
Sent: Wed 8/9/2006 5:40 PM
To: Deharte, Matthew
Subject: Re: [After the Tempest...A Murmur] 8/06/2006 09:35:44 PM
I'm impressed that you responded to my comment. I really didn't expect you to. I was just cruising through some blogs and found yours - and it was interesting, so I spent some time reading...and then the profanity started jumping out at me and to be honest, I was somewhat startled. My experience has been that new Christians and carnal Christians have trouble cleaning up their language, but most mature Christians I know have done as Romans12:1-2 has told us to do, and of course not under our own power, but by submission to the Holy Spirit. I know that in the flesh, I could very easily slip up and use words I shouldn't - and sometimes I think them even if I don't say them. But it bothers me because I'm convicted by the Holy Spirit. We are to strive to be like our holy Christ.
I really think that the profanity lessens your cause. You don't have to be like the world in order to reach the world. You obviously have a yearning to see the lost saved. May I suggest you try a new approach - after spending time in prayer about it of course - and see if God doesn't actually increase your effectiveness by your obedience to choose your words more carefully.
I hope you understand that the spirit in which I have written this has not been a condemning one, but rather a concerned one.
Thanks again for emailing.
Ms. X
[There is an email missing here in which I challenge Ms.X views on the "end times" and the European Union's association's with that event. I expressly use Apocryphal books to compare and relate to Revelations, and she responded. I think you can pick up the rest of the context]
On 8/10/06, Deharte, Matthew
Ms. X,
Fear not! it is not too easy to offend me. Anyway, I too am under the conviction that the apocrypha is not a part of the inspired word of God, but do find it interesting to compare and contrast such texts when looking at books as "Revelation" which are a part of the same genre of ancient Biblical texts. Anyway, I would love for you to make a longer reply over the weekend and am still interested in hearing those views on the European Union.
However, you have now struck my interest in a new way! I am grossly interested in hearing your thoughts on the emergent church movement! Do I detect signs of a Southern Baptist? Ah, the good old boys! J/k
Anyway, I immanently await your reply!
Matt
PS - once again, I mean not to offend, but explication of scripture should not be restricted to one or two verses here and there. I believe you have used both passages that you have sent me out of context, though I will say that I respect your conviction on the use of profanity and will encourage you in anyway to stay steadfast and strong in that conviction for it is right and honorable.
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From: Ms. X
Sent: Thu 8/10/2006 9:09 PM
To: Deharte, Matthew
Subject: Re: [After the Tempest...A Murmur] 8/06/2006 09:35:44 PM
You are turning out to be a challenge, Matthew.
First of all, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I am not SBC. I don't have anything against SBC, other than I don't like using the new Bible versions and because I believe in the local church autonomy and authority.
I must immediately protest your accusation that I have taken the passages I referred to out of context. First of all, for Romans chapter 12:1-2: We are to present our body (our life) to Christ as a living sacrifice (the Greek for "present" here is the same word translated as "yield" in Romans 6:13) and we are to stop being "conformed" (molded) from without (by the world) and start being transformed from within and live according to the will of God - in other words, in total surrender. A Holy God will not have us speaking profane words.
On Proverbs 24:9 - it means just what it said. The thought of foolishness is sin. Foolishness = "'ivveleth " meaning foolishness or folly - the definition of folly includes 1 : lack of good sense or normal prudence and foresight
2 a : criminally or tragically foolish actions or conduct b obsolete : EVIL
Lastly, Matthew 12:36 is not just a random verse taken out of context either. It is a promise. We WILL give an account of every word.
Well, had to get that in. Talk to you more this weekend. Don't have time to go into the Emergent Church's panthiesm/new age/mystic/easternized/gnostic teachings at the moment.
Ms. X
On 8/11/06, Deharte, Matthew
Oh Ms. X,
I must be honest that I proceed here in caution. I fear that we tread the line of no longer sharpening one another, and that our correspondance may devolve into a spiritually unhealthy bickering (I am not expressly accusing you of such, but I think we must keep this in mind as we proceed).Anyway, I too think that we are to be transformed from within by the working of the Holy Spirit as we give our lives in sacrifice to Christ Our Lord, but I must here refer you to my blog on the diversity of the body in order that you may recieve a glimpse of what that sacrifice is in light of the diverse and eclectic body of believers. I also find it to be a vast jump that you take from us living in total surrender to God and us not speaking profane words. One may here assume, through conservative American culture and not by any true biblical standard, that abstainence from cursing is part and parcel of a holy life, but it is important to remember that Paul is not laying out a Pharisaic world view that would have us pick apart those two verses in order to defend what we assume to be holy, but he is rather trying to strengthen and encourage a fledgling church that faces persecution in every way as well as the temptation to return to a pagan life of idol worship and (most likely) worship via prostitution as were the traditional marks of Hellenistic forms of religion at the time. Also, it is especially significant to remember that Paul himself curses in scripture to heighten his point in the famous 1 Corinthians 4:13 passage.
Here I find it most helpful to dive into a cultural explication of the Post-Exilic text of Job in which we find a broken and lost people (the israelites) churning out a story of a man who does nothing but rebel and (at least to the orthodox redaction of his friends) blaspheme against a wholly just God. Yet, one finds that Job is exonorated by God for his honesty in his relationship with God, and it is his friends, chasing blindly after legality instead of a right and true relationship with God, that must seek repentance (REB Job 42:8). God seeks trueness of heart and faith in His soveriegnty from us and not legalistic quandries. That of course is not to mean we are to have no moral compass, but we are to seek His good perfect and pleasing will through the transformation of our minds as the passage you have pointed to expresses.
As for the passage from Matthew I find it most concerning that you do not see the use of this one passage to be out of context mainly in light of the the theme of the whole chapter which stresses Christ's opposition to the Pharisees who, as historians would tell us, were leading the people astray in First Century Palestine in order to gain prestige and wealth. Sure, this passage is a promise. It is a promise that Christ has broken the cycle of sin and death in His own death and resurrection, and it is a promise that the sharp and harsh legality that is presented by the pharisaical paradigm is in direct contrast to the ministry and gospel (euggalion) of Christ and therefore God; it is not, and never was, meant to present a world view that would force the children of God to hide their emotion and heart from God or the world.
Also, I feel that you have failed to present an accurate argument which would say that Prov 24:9 is in anyway contrasting the use of profanity. I do not mean to dodge this question that ends one of your previous emails, but I do think that the burden of proof is aggressively in your court to show that the "thought of foolishness" in anyway refers to one's use of profanity. Rather, I think it is improtant to look at the whole of Prov 24, and to see that the ancient writer is contrasting the search of Wisdom with the folly of living a life of ignorance, but mentions no where the use of profanity.
Well, Ms. X, if I have forgotten anything then press me at a future date, and as before I eagerly await your reply. 'Til next time
Your Brother,
Matt DeHarte
From: Ms. X
Sent: Thu 8/10/2006
To: Deharte, Matthew
Subject: Re: [After the Tempest...A Murmur] 8/06/2006 09:35:44 PM
At this point, Matthew, your exegesis of Scripture is so totally different that I too believe we tread that line. Suffice it to say that I choose not to participate in these discussions further. It saddens me to see someone professing Christ who is so anxious to defend, yea celebrate his right to use profanity. It is time to part ways. My journey is much different from yours, and our paths are not horizontal. As to what version of Scripture you are using, it matters not, because none of the words of I Corinthians 4:13 in the original Greek are what I would call curse words, though Paul was speaking of the despicable, he did not resort to profanity.
I suspect that you will be tempted to respond to this, but I will let you know up front that regardless of whether you respond, or how you respond, my responses have ended. You are either being foolish, or you are not truly a born again Christian, or you have been totally misled by whatever religious body you have been associating with. I will not, nor can I, make that determination.
END OF CORRESPONDENCE
